A Conversation with Dr. Ross Greene About the Kids Who Aren’t Okay

Debbie:
Hey Ross, welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Thank you for having me back.

Debbie:
Always. We were just discussing you’re welcome anytime. And I’m especially excited when you have a new book or a new project or documentary, you’re always creating new resources for our community. And I just want to, before we get into your new book for listeners who are newer to this show, definitely go back on the show notes. I’ll have links to the first two conversations we had where we talked about a lot about the collaborative and proactive solutions model, which we’ll touch upon today, but I really wanna spend most of the time talking about your new book. So if you’re not familiar with Dr. Green’s work, those are must listens as are his books. And I’ll just say, your work has probably impacted me more than anybody else’s work in terms of how I’ve shown up as a parent, how I advocate, how I consider myself a parent activist. So anyway, thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Greene:Thank you, I’m flattered.

Debbie:
The gushing, will wrap that up and we’ll pivot. But I really want to get right into your book because I absolutely loved it. And as you’re listening to this, you guys, it’s coming out today, February 24th. But the book is called The Kids Who Aren’t OK, The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. So can you tell us about this book and how it came about, why you wanted to get this out into the world?

Dr. Ross Greene:
Kids aren’t doing very well these days. The data on the rates of depression and anxiety and suicidality and concerning behavior and chronic school absenteeism are sky high. And that should be a concern to all of us. The easy attribution is COVID, but things were heading in the wrong direction before COVID. So COVID’s not it. COVID accelerated things, but we’re not seeing this because of COVID. We’re seeing it because of a lot of, in my opinion, the changes that have occurred in society over the last two plus decades that have made it harder to be a kid. And it’s easy to lose track of all those things in our busy lives while social media is on the list. My worry is that if all we’re focused on is social media, we’ll miss all the rest of the things, many of which I believe are actually more important than social media. So I don’t want people to get too caught up in the social media part. Yeah, there’s definitely things in social media that are not good. And there’s no doubt that kids who are way overusing social media, those are the ones whose mental health is most adversely affected. But we don’t want to miss the rest. There’s a lot that has made life much more difficult for kids in the last two plus decades. And those are the things we should be looking at too.

Debbie:
Yeah, I mean, and you lay out those things in the beginning of the book and you do present a lot of reasons why the kids aren’t okay. some of, know, it is daunting, right? Just we have to start there. We have to understand, you know, what’s going on. And it’s also really daunting to read. One of the things that jumped out at me the most was just this awareness of global events, social issues and crises earlier in life, you know,  and how much that has changed. Can you talk about that? Because I think it’s something that as I read it, like, of course, but it’s not really on our radar.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Should be on our radar. First of all, kids are more aware of a lot of things because of social media. That’s not necessarily a completely bad thing. But we’re also teaching kids to be more aware. And I don’t view that as necessarily a bad thing either, so long as they can handle it. But there’s no doubt. mean, I’m up there in years. Kids know a heck of a lot more about what we might call the underside of the world than I did when I was a kid. I think it was better hidden. So, you know, it’s an interesting dilemma. Is it okay for kids to know all that stuff and to be more aware at earlier ages? And of course, we’re gonna have developmental variability coming into play there. Some kids are gonna be able to handle it just fine. And truth is, one of the things I say in the book is most kids are still okay, but more than ever are not. And so if we’re looking for reasons that more than ever are not, because of developmental variability, some kids are going to be able to better handle all of what’s going on in this crazy world of ours, where bad stuff happens every day, and people are mistreated every day. Sometimes whole populations are mistreated every day. Some kids are gonna be able to handle that better than others.

You know, it’s interesting, I will say, but I’ll say about that as an older dude is, boy, I took all that stuff to heart, and maybe the advantage of old age is you’re not taking things quite as much to heart anymore because you’ve habituated to all the ugly things that are going on out there. Once again, good that a lot of kids haven’t habituated to it, bad that it’s a lot to handle.

Debbie:
I’m thinking about, as you were describing that, for a lot of students, it was the case for me that when I went to college, that was when I kind of really had my social awareness and I got involved more in social justice movements and that understanding of the bigger world. I…
you know, just thinking about how different my childhood would have been if I was inundated with this information, if I was worried about school shootings, which you say over 50 % of kids between the ages of 13 and 21 are stressed, anxious and depressed over that prospect. I mean, there’s so many layers to this. So it is a very different time. And as you said, the same solutions that we’ve been using for kids to support them a generation ago, they’re not going to work today.

Dr. Ross Greene:
It cannot be business as usual. I know this is an overused term, but we do have a new normal here in terms of what’s walking in the door. One of the things I say in that chapter were that depressing chapter, which is chapter one, which is all the things that have changed to make it harder to be a kid, is that, and this is a school-focused book, but a lot of parents are gonna get a lot out of it too, is that schools can’t do a lot of much about a lot of those things. What schools can do is create an ecosystem, a climate, a culture that is attuned to what’s walking in the door, that takes into account that there are more vulnerable kids than ever walking in the door and proceed accordingly. And there are a lot of things that we’re still doing in schools that miss the mark completely given what’s walking in the door. And that’s the whole point of the book. I don’t write a book unless I feel like I have something new to say. And you’ve read my other stuff, so I’m sure you were thinking, he’s not talked about this before. Obviously, I talk about things that I think we can do differently, and that’s where the collaborative and productive solutions model comes in. But there’s a lot of stuff in that book that I’ve not talked about previously in a book.

Debbie:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And well, let’s take a step back. You mentioned this phrase developmental variability a couple of times and I’m, know, the listeners of this show are parents and caregivers of neurodivergent kids. So is that what you’re talking about when you say that?

Dr. Ross Greene:
Neurodevelopmental variability means everybody’s different. And everybody’s different in every kind of way. Even within the range of people who are referring to themselves as neurodivergent, there are tremendous differences. But… because it’s developed, so developmental variability is a fancy way of saying every kid is different. All right, if every kid is different, then let’s take a look at what we’re doing in schools where we’re saying every kid’s got to get over the same bar by the end of the school year. That’s not an approach that takes into account developmental variability. When you’re talking about developmental variability and we should, that should be, that’s what’s walking in the door, right? Truth is, if you gave me the diagnostic and statistical manual and said, Ross, rewrite this for us, there would be one diagnosis, developmental variability. It’s the diagnosis we all meet criteria for because everybody’s different. And yet for a very long time, we’ve been trying to get every kid over the same bar by the end of the school year.

Another big theme in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point for what they’re able to do now, what we eventually hope they’ll be able to do. That doesn’t say we’re selling anybody short, but every kid being their own reference point takes into account developmental variability. And then, of course, another crucial theme in the book is the definition of good teaching. This is a very developmentally variable sensitive definition of good teaching, meeting every kid where they’re at, which by the way is the definition of good parenting. It’s the definition of good treatment. So often we’re laying a template over a kid based on something like a diagnosis that supposedly guides us, but there’s developmental variability within every diagnosis too. So the diagnosis actually isn’t telling me that much. Developmental variability tells me everything I need to know. I just need to figure out how this individual is struggling, in what ways is their developmental variability making it hard for them to meet the expectations that are being placed upon them, and how we’re gonna go from there.

Debbie:
Yeah, one of the quotes that I pulled out on that you said, it’s hard to meet kids where they’re at if you don’t know where they’re at. And the best source of information for identifying what’s making it hard for student to meet a given expectation is the student. And it was, of course, and you know, that is really not how most schools are designed. And I’m just wondering. You know, you’ve been in this space for so long and you’ve been working in schools, especially, you know, regarding seclusion and restraint. And, you know, this is a big part of your, your mission is to change these cultures. Where are we right now? Like, what is the openness in terms of schools to kind of start to make this pivot that you’ve been guiding them towards?

Dr. Ross Greene:
Well, there’s variability there too, as you might expect. The author Ken Wilber talked about conscious incompetence and unconscious incompetence. Conscious incompetence is when you know that what you’re doing isn’t working, you’re just not sure what to do instead. Unconscious incompetence is when you’re not even aware that what you’re doing isn’t working. In conscious incompetence, that’s a little bit easier because those are schools that are saying, we know what we’re doing now isn’t working. We are receptive to other ways of doing things because the way we’ve been doing things for decades, we’re losing a lot of kids and the system is being overwhelmed now. You maybe we could get by.

This is going to sound harsh, but maybe losing kids was more tolerable when there weren’t so many of them. I mean, I don’t want to lose one, but maybe we were willing to accept that as you know, the cost of doing business, we’re not going to be able to reach everybody, but as long as we’re reaching the sheer number of kids who aren’t doing well these days is overwhelming the system. It’s causing people to say, whoa, this isn’t good, right? And yet there are still schools that are willing to continue doing things the same way. You know, there’s the things we say to ourselves to make it not about us, it’s the kids’ family. It’s the kid themselves. It’s things we can’t do anything about. So there’s variable receptivity. One of the things we know for sure though is that it’s not good out there for kids and educators are talking about that a lot. There’s no place I go that educators aren’t saying, boy, this is the worst I’ve ever seen it. All right, if it’s the worst we’ve ever seen it, then business as usual isn’t gonna cut it.

Debbie:
I, you know, of course I live, eat and breathe this space and what’s happening with our kids. And just hearing you talk about that made me feel really emotional. You know, your documentary, The Kids We Lose, we are losing kids and we don’t get that back. there’s, when the damage is done, it’s so hard. It just can completely change the trajectory for a young person and for them to kind of overcome that is just really difficult barrier in their lives. So this feels so urgent and it’s just heartbreaking to think like, what is the cost? Okay, so we’re losing more kids. So I’m glad that there is at least an awareness that this is happening and that something needs to change.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Yes, we are losing more kids. Most educators are really overwhelmed though because of what we’ve thrown at them. So they feel like they’re between a rock and a hard place too. They would like, lot of educators would love to change things up. They’re feeling like they are restricted in what they can do by policies and procedures and special ed directors and superintendents and. legislatures that are telling them to do things a certain way. Here’s the good news about what you just said. While our actions could cause us to lose a lot of kids and presently are, as we know from many educators, the reverse is also true. Our actions could actually save a lot of kids. Even if they’re going home to something that isn’t exactly ideal, you got to kid six hours a day, five days a week, nine months a year. Make full use of that and you’re going to save a lot of kids. If what we’re mostly focused on is what’s going on outside the building, which is what a lot of people inside the building are focused on, we aren’t going to save anybody.

Debbie:
One of the things that you talk a lot about in the book too, I mean, you just spoke to the challenges that educators have. And first of all, I just want to say, I love that you include these dialogues with teachers. You’re kind of, you’re exploring all the questions that you must hear from educators of why, but how would I do this and how could I make this work? And it’s so helpful. And I imagine that’s really gonna be wonderful for any educator who reads this because I can’t imagine there are any questions they have that you haven’t addressed. One of the things you kind of break down because there are a lot of things that schools aren’t doing right because they’re focusing again on behavior. There’s this concept you shared about being early versus being late when it comes to our kids and our students. I’d love it if you could unpack that for us.

Dr. Ross Greene:
I had a feeling that’s where you were heading. You know, one full chapter in the book is devoted to, the name of the chapter is, and I’ve probably changed it since you’ve seen it, but the name of the chapter is Set Up to Be Late. I think a lot of our structures and a lot of our policies set us up to be late. And I think it’s a setup, so there’s actually a double meaning. I don’t think being late, being reactive is good practice for educators. I don’t think it’s good practice for kids, but boy, we laid a lot in schools. And some of most obvious examples are restraint and seclusion. Boy, those occur at the end of a very long sequence. Those are late. Suspension, detention, expulsion, corporal punishment, late. Calming corners are late. I’m not going to go through the whole list here because it would take the rest of our time together. Calming corners occur after a kid didn’t calm, which means they’re already having difficulty meeting an expectation. So calming corner is late. Thanks to PBIS, we’re giving kids a lot of breaks these days when, and the word when is always the dead giveaway for being late, when they’re already having difficulty meeting an expectation.

And as I often say, that probably explains why I work with kids who are getting 15, 20 breaks a day. But 15, 20 breaks on Monday only guarantees 15, 20 breaks on Tuesday, because not only is taking a break late, taking a break isn’t going to solve any of the problems that are causing the kid to need to break in the first place. So the key point here is that behavior is late. Concerning behavior is late. Concerning behavior communicates to us that a kid is having difficulty meeting an expectation. The expectation, which in the collaborative and proactive solutions model we call unsolved problems, are very predictable. Most of them are old. This is not the first time this kid has had difficulty meeting this expectation. Why are we waiting for the behavior to occur before we leap into action when those unsolved problems, which once again are early can be identified proactively, can be solved proactively. There’s one other thing we should mention is late. Consequences. Now by definition, consequences are late. Consequences, whether it’s a reward or a punishment, is an event that occurs after the fact in response to something else that’s late, the kid’s concerning behavior. But consequences are not problem solving strategies. They’re just behavior modification strategies, which is why so many kids in our schools have massive piles of unsolved problems. If we don’t identify them proactively, if we don’t solve them proactively, we’re always gonna find ourselves in the heat of the moment dealing yet again with a kid’s concerning behavior, yet again with consequences which are late at the time.

Debbie:
Well, yeah, I think when I read through that list, which is extensive, the calming corner, like all of those things, like, my gosh, yes. It’s basically like the full menu for the most part of what educators have at their disposal, the things that they’re supposed to do, the things that IEPs spell out that they should be doing. And so I could see just this concept of this shift would be so profoundly impactful in a classroom.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Huge.

Debbie:
So let’s talk about expectation management, which is another concept that you explore in the book. And maybe you could share why that is such a critical concept for educators to really grab onto.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Well, first of all, it’s unmet expectations or once again, what we call unsolved problems that cause frustration or distress responses, which we call, which people would call concerning behavior. So concerning behavior is typically preceded by an expectation that a kid is having difficulty meeting. So it’s pretty much guaranteed that if you put an expectation on a kid that they’re having difficulty meeting, and they’ve proven to us that they’re having difficulty meeting it, this is generally speaking not a surprise, you’re gonna get concerning behavior. The reason it’s important concept is first of all, for people to understand, yes, it is our expectations that are setting in motion a lot of those concerning behaviors, but we’ve put a lot of pressure on educators to…

Number one, get every kid over the same bar by the end of the school year. Educators also take a lot of pride in seeing kids progress, seeing kids do well, right? We’ve been trying to instill grit in our kids, and we’ve been told that the key ingredients of grit are passion and perseverance. So we have a lot of instances in which kids are struggling. And what we’re mostly asking them to do is persevere their way through it. I think a P word is missing from that equation, problem solving. We can problem solve our way through that. And then you’re going to actually be helping a kid learn how to persevere because now they have a skill that helps them persevere. But expectation management is big because a lot of folks don’t even yet appreciate the fact that it’s our expectations that are setting a lot of concerning behaviors in motion and setting in motion that sequence that often leads to punitive exclusionary discipline. So it’s often the kids who are having difficulty meeting the most expectations and therefore exhibiting the most concerning behavior who are on the receiving end of the most punitive exclusionary disciplinary practices. Where do we do something about that? Upstream by focusing on our expectations. I fervently believe, and I probably say this in the book, that if we were managing our expectations better, we would be managing behavior far less. I think it’s kind of tragic that we’ve been focused on behavior management. Behavior is late. When we could have been focused on expectation management, once again, every kid is their own reference point.

We’re talking about developmental variability here, meeting kids where they’re at. If you’re meeting kids where they’re at, you’re not putting expectations on them that they have proven to you that they’re unable to meet at this point in their development. Now, does that mean they’ll never be able to meet it? No, and we’re not selling kids short. It’s just that, and I think you quoted this earlier, you’re not going to find out what a kid can do unless you meet them where they’re at. If you’re not meeting them where they’re at and you’re putting expectations on them that they cannot conceivably meet, you’re going to get the worst from the kid. So meeting kids where they’re at actually gets the best. Not selling anybody short, it’s not necessarily lowering the bar. It’s not saying the kid is incapable. It’s saying, meet the kid where they’re at. Manage your expectations so that they are meeting this kid where this kid is at at this point in their development.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah. And you said just then that, yes, they would be managing behavior a lot less if they were doing this. And you also said, and they’d be suspending, expelling, hitting, deescalating, restraining, and secluding a lot less too. And one of the things that jumped out at me is you talk about this language of lucky versus unlucky frustration responses. And I was like, yeah, that is so true. Because if you have a child with those bigger intense reactions that are seen by others as unsafe or scary or inappropriate for the situation, the response is going to be much different and potentially harmful to that student.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Let there be no doubt, there are some frustration responses, I call them lucky, that are going to elicit empathy, nurturance and support from caregivers, whining, pouting, sulking, withdrawing, crying. That’s a lucky kid. They’re gonna be responded to with empathy. Unlucky frustration responses, screaming, hitting, spitting, kicking, biting, throwing, destroying, running. That’s an unlucky kid because that kid is far less likely to be responded to with empathy, nurturance, and support. What’s important for people to realize is that whether the kid’s frustration response is lucky or unlucky, it is communicating the exact same thing. There’s an expectation this kid is struggling to meet.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah, and I just wanted to talk about very briefly the language of attention seeking, manipulative, coercive, and unmotivated. You said those shouldn’t be used in behavior assessments in school. I think they shouldn’t be used by parents too. mean, even within my community, I still hear people say, yes, but this really does feel manipulative, or this really felt like a choice, or you know purposefully disruptive or whatever it is. I’m just wondering why, why do think there’s such adults have such a hard time kind of reframing this behavior?

Dr. Ross Greene:
History, history, what we’ve been exposed to. Clichés, these are characterizations that are frequently invoked. They’re wrong, they all flow from the belief that somehow the kid’s behavior is getting them something. You know, one of the big themes of my body of work is kids do well if they can. The belief that this kid would very much prefer to be doing well. If they’re not doing well, something’s getting in their way. That sets us up to focus on what’s getting in the kid’s way. But if we automatically invoke attention seeking, manipulative, coercive, unmotivated limit testing, first of all, we’re gonna be wrong. Tell you the truth, I’d rather play it safe. I think that those characterizations put us in a mode where we are trying to make a kid want to do well or prove to them, you know, this is where us adults get our dander up. No adult wants to feel like they’re being manipulated. No adult wants to feel like they’re being coerced. But those characterizations set us up to either ignore the kid.
as in the case of attention seeking, or extinguish the concerning behavior, right? Or prove to the kid who’s boss, now we’re moving into the power territories. Now we’re moving into consequences. I think you’re a whole lot safer thinking, my kid would very much prefer to be doing well here. My kid’s not doing well. Let me find out what’s going on with my kid.

How about I don’t have to interpret anything? How about I make a list of all of the expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting? How about I prioritize a few of them so that we’re not working on everything at once? And how about me and the kid together find out what’s making it hard for the kid to meet this expectation? There goes attention seeking, manipulative, coercive, unmotivated limit testing. Here comes, here’s why I’m having difficulty eating what you make for dinner. Here’s why I’m having difficulty getting off the Xbox to come in for dinner. Here’s why I’m having difficulty completing the double digit division problems on the worksheet in math. So as I think you may have just said, your number one source of information in this model is the kid. There’s actually no need for us adults to interpret anything. In this model, the skill is in finding out what’s been getting in the way for your kid on this expectation for so long. And by the way, all those characterizations, they didn’t get us anywhere anyhow. So there’s no harm in dropping them, probably a lot of harm in sticking with them.

Debbie:
Yeah, and you say that, you know, that ultimately this will save us a lot of time in the long run. You know, you might get some resistance from educators that it takes more effort to sit down with a student one-on-one and kind of go through and try to and do this problem solving model with the child. But at the end of the day, you’re going to actually help that student be more successful and save a lot of kind hitting your head against the wall and harming the student.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Let there be no doubt. What takes all that time is problems that remain unsolved day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, because we’re so focused on behavior and modifying it. Being proactive saves a lot of time too, because being late and having unsolved problems remain unsolved, that takes forever. And once again, as I say in the book, we’ve been set up to be late. We’ve been convinced by some large corporations, I refer to it as the restraint industry, that deescalating, restraining, and secluding kids, not the secluding part, they don’t teach that, that deescalating and restraining kids is pretty much a given with certain kids. That is absolutely untrue. There’s lots of places where equally difficult kids go to school where nobody’s laying hands on them. So, and by the way, that is an industry that generates hundreds of millions of dollars every year teaching educators how to be late. my, what are we doing?

Debbie:
Yeah. And you have a very, you have a story that you share in the book of how, you know, a student is restrained. And it’s really hard to reach, like even though, you know, we know that this stuff happens, but it’s just so painful to know that that’s the experience of kids. So let’s just spend a few minutes before we wrap up talking about the way that you’re encouraging educators to use your model in classrooms and you you introduced the the ASAP which I think used to be the ASAP. Have you changed it? you? Okay, so

Dr. Ross Greene:
We did, we took the word lagging out. It’s now the assessment of skills and unsolved problems, mostly out of sensitivity to the neurodivergent community, which let us know that they didn’t like the word lagging. They felt that the word lagging had a neurotypical reference point and they don’t really feel like they’re lagging anything. So the indication that they had been heard was that we took the word lagging out of the instruments. Now it’s the ASAP. And it helps us identify what we call the information that’s been missing. Skills, which explain why this kid has an unlucky frustration response if they do. That’s about skills, not motivation. Good for adults to identify those skills. But the other thing the instrument does, and this is probably even bigger, is it helps us identify every expectation this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting. Which until the ASIP is done, has never been done before. Because all we’ve been doing is identifying behaviors, right?

We do not have to do another behavior checklist. We do not have to do another behavior observation. We know what the kids’ concerning behaviors are. The information that’s been missing is the unsolved problems that are causing that concerning behavior, which we could be busy solving if we weren’t so busy modifying the behaviors that are being caused by those problems. So yes, the ASAP is huge. It sort of sets us up, it’s free by the way, but it’s assessment gold. It sets up everything else that’s yet to come, which is let’s start solving problems with these kids. The more problems we solve, the less concerning behaviors we will see because this is a big line. It’s only unsolved problems that cause concerning behavior. Solved problems don’t. So in this model, you are improving behavior by solving the problems that are causing them. Because if all we’re doing is modifying those behaviors, zero problems get solved.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah. And you say that you can use the ASAP also to write an IEP. Like that becomes your blueprint. Are you seeing that happen in schools?

Dr. Ross Greene:
Totally. Absolutely. And we have sample IEPs on the Lives in the Balance website. We have sample functional behavior assessments on the Lives in the Balance website. We tell schools the ACIP is going to write your FBA for you. If you don’t have to do an FBA, just do the ACIP. It’s going to give you better information, in my opinion. If you have to write an FBA, do the ACIP first. It’s going to write the FBA for you. So the goal of this book is not only to say, look how we’re getting it wrong. There’s a lot right going on in schools, by the way. This is not a trash educator’s book. A lot of good going on in schools, but we are making it so hard for educators to do the right thing because a lot of structures and a lot of policies make that much harder. So this is not only a here’s how, here’s why things are not going well. It’s a blueprint. How to be early, how to solve problems with kids so they don’t stay unsolved, how to move away from focusing on behavior and behavior modification and do something different, not out of a whim, but because we need to.

Debbie:
Yeah. Let me just ask one last question then for parents and caregivers who are listening to this. We do have a lot of educators. So if you’re an educator listening to this, get the book and see how you can implement these strategies in this philosophy in your school. But for parents who are listening and they want to get their schools on board, how do you suggest they go about doing that?

Dr. Ross Greene:
I suggest they find the person in the building who they think will be most receptive, could be a classroom teacher, could be a school counselor, could be a principal, and give them a copy of the book. Talk to them and say, this book is not gonna take you that long to read. As we know, my kid is not doing well right now. This has been very helpful to me in my household. I think this will be very helpful to my child in your school. Can we talk about this after you take a look at it? Because I don’t want to lose my kid.

Debbie:
Okay, I’m just endlessly grateful for you and the world and what you do for children everywhere. It’s just so important. Let me name the book again. It’s called The Kids Who Weren’t Okay, The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. It’s out as of the release date of this episode. Is there any last thing you want to share before we say goodbye?

Dr. Ross Greene:
You do such a great job of this. I think we’re good.

Debbie:
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time today. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Dr. Ross Greene:
Thanks for inviting me to do it.