Rebecca Duffus & Lyric Rivera on Supporting Kids’ Autistic Identity Development

Debbie:
Hey, Rebecca and Lyric, welcome to the podcast.

Rebecca Duffus:
Hey, nice to meet you.

Debbie:
Yes, I am looking forward to this. And what I like to do at the beginning of my conversations is always ask people to introduce themselves in their own words, but really more than that, talk about their personal why for the conversation we’re going to have today, the work you do in the world, how you show up in the world. So let’s start there. And then we’ll pivot to this collaboration. So I don’t know who wants to go first. It’s totally up to you. Who wants to go first?

Lyric Rivera:
Thank you so much for inviting us.

Lyric Rivera:
I’ll jump in, I’ll go. My name is Lyric and I found out I was autistic when I was 29 years old. And at that point in my life, it’s about nine years ago now, and there weren’t a lot of resources out there for adults who were trying to unpack what that really means, because autism is such a wide and varied constellation that it can present in many ways. So you really have to figure out what that means for you as a person. And so as an adult, there wasn’t much out there for me to do that. But that’s kind of the why — because I realized even as an adult, I was struggling to find out what being autistic meant to me. And so if I, as an adult, struggle with this, of course the young people need support in this area. And so that’s kind of my why for getting involved with this project and Rebecca.

Debbie:
So how about you, Rebecca?

Rebecca Duffus:
And for me, I guess kind of broadly in terms of what I do — I started out doing a psychology degree and kind of wanted to go off down that route, but then worked in a school for autistic children. And then that just kind of captured me. And I then decided, okay, I wanted to do teaching and be able to work with those young people, which then led me to sort of being a specialist advisory teacher now. So in my role, I go into different schools and work with families and young people. And that’s just always… I’ve kind of got the bug really for just wanting to understand and work with different people. And then yeah, that’s led into various different little projects along the way.

Debbie:
And can I just take a little tangent for a moment? I just want to also ask, before I hit record, you mentioned something — I was saying I’m in the Netherlands, you’re in the UK, and you asked me a question about school systems. And I’m just wondering in the UK, where do you think you guys are in terms of neurodivergent-affirming, autistic-affirming education — kind of generally, or just understanding and awareness? Where are you guys?

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, good question. I mean, I can’t really compare. I think some people say we’re sort of maybe ahead of some areas — Lyric will probably add to this. But I think a lot of schools now are saying that they feel more confident in working with autistic young people, and maybe less so with ADHD, for example. But I think… a lot of the research that’s been done is that in terms of teacher training, it has got a bit better, but it’s still quite minimal, the amount of information people get. And I think as a society, there’s kind of been a shift at the moment in terms of more like universal provision. So there’s this phrase being sort of bandied about at the moment about “every teacher is a teacher of SEN,” which is sort of a new buzz line. But the idea is that there’s more standard stuff that teachers are able to do. But obviously that comes alongside resourcing and money and everything else. But so yeah, I think there has definitely been a lot of progress, but there’s still a long way to go.

Debbie:
Yeah. What would you add to that, Lyric?

Lyric Rivera:
Yeah, in the United States, the situation is unfortunately a little bit grim. I feel the UK and a lot of other places on the other side of the world are ahead of us, unfortunately. During the pandemic, when everyone was doing things on Zoom, I actually advocated in a few different IEP meetings for young people in the United States to help get their supports and their rights maintained in place. Neurodivergent kids, whether it’s autism or ADHD or other things, often are still being viewed and treated through a behavioral lens — as if these are things we need to squash and get under control versus the mentality of supporting and helping them do what they need to be their best version of themselves, whatever that is. And so that’s kind of disheartening to see because that’s how it was when I was a kid. It’s something we need to work on. But even now in the United States, recently we’ve lost some of the protections in our education system for kids with disabilities. And even they’re talking about maybe building codes might have less protections for kids and adults with disabilities too. So unfortunately, it’s a bit grim in the United States, especially of late. But looking at what is happening in other countries does give me hope and ideas that it can be done better. There are countries that are worse off than the United States by far. So, you’ve got to be grateful for what you do have, I guess, but it’s hard to see.

Debbie:
And we’ll pivot to your book in a moment, but just to kind of add to this commentary on schools — I ran a live call last night with about 100 folks on the call, and we were discussing what some of the biggest challenges are that parents of neurodivergent kids are struggling with — whether it’s financial strain in the family, or lack of understanding or awareness of neurodivergence in general, or whatever. But education and school was by far, hands down, the number one challenge. So, I think there has been a lot of progress, but there’s so much more work to do. And I feel like school is kind of the biggest area of focus. So okay, let’s pivot from that rabbit hole, because I want to talk about your book. You have — it’s actually two books. There’s a book for kids 10 and up called Autism, Identity, and Me: A Practical Workbook to Empower Autistic Children and Young People Age 10 Plus. I love that you guys are holding up the book. I’m going to do the same. And then there’s the workbook that goes with this, which is A Professional and Parent Guide to Support a Positive Understanding of Autistic Identity. So let’s start with the spark or the seed of the idea — in terms of what really felt missing from the resources that existed that made you feel like, “This book needs to come out into the world.”

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, so what I just have to add here is that my books are actually propped up on my son’s high chair — just to be really professional. So yeah, for me, a lot of the work I was doing — coming into schools and working with young people — was coming back to an understanding of their identity and their diagnosis. So even now, so much of the time I’ll go into a school, I’ll be talking to a family, and they’ll be saying, “We’ve got all these problems and these things going on,” and one of the first questions I’ll ask is, “Do they know they’re autistic and what do they understand about that?” And often it will be like, “No,” or “Yeah, they were told a few years ago,” or “It was kind of a one-and-done conversation and then that’s it.” So I was then trying to encourage people to have more conversations about this, to support individuals to actually explore it in much more detail — and it being more of an ongoing process. But a lot of parents and professionals in schools were just thinking, “Well, where do I start with this?” From the parental perspective, it was often an anxiety of not wanting to say the wrong thing and kind of ruin the whole experience. And often professionals in schools maybe didn’t have enough knowledge of what to say, what not to say, and all the sort of understanding of what it really means to be autistic.

So I was doing lots of one-to-one work with young people, and more and more people were saying, “Can you come and work with my child? Can you come and work with my child?” And I thought, well, if I could make some kind of resource that people could then go away and use, lots of people would then feel more confident. So this was just after lockdown in the UK. I thought, “Yeah, I’ll do like a workbook.” And then that became expanded into, “Yeah, let’s do two books. Why not?” So then the guidebook was the confidence builder behind the workbook. The idea is that parents can read that or professionals can read that first, feel really confident in what they’re going to say, have that understanding — because so much is still focused on the medicalized model. So the book has a real social model in terms of talking about autism rather than ASD and the importance of language. So yes, it became two books in the UK, and it went down really well. Then the publishers said, “It’d be great if we could launch a specific US version.” And so then I managed to get Lyric on board to bring an additional insight from their own lived experience, and we added some extra elements as well.

Just to note though, before that, with the original version I did lots of work with different young people, so the book is full of quotes from young people so that they can obviously have their voice heard. But for a young person reading it, they feel validated as well. And I think one of the things I found with other resources out there was that they were often a bit too generic — so parents would say, “Yeah, we’ve bought these books for my child, but they’ll get to like page three and say, ‘No, I don’t do that,’ and then the book’s done.” So the whole purpose with the workbook is that you can personalize it. When you get to a section that you think isn’t about you, you can just put a line through that bit. Other bits you can add your own notes, or parents can add to it. It’s really visual. The aim was to be something really empowering — that the young person leaves with a better understanding of what autism actually means to them. And they feel empowered to advocate for themselves and be a bit more proud of who they are.

Debbie:
So Lyric, I’d love to hear from your perspective — maybe even when Rebecca brought you onto this — why you thought it was so important to be doing this work and collaborating on this project about identity.

Lyric Rivera:
Yeah, so as I briefly mentioned earlier, I didn’t find out I was autistic until I was almost 30. And for the past nine years, I’ve really been on this self-discovery, self-healing journey, because I realized that one of my biggest core wounds growing up, not knowing I was autistic — and so having very unrealistic expectations put on me constantly because of that, and then also being blamed and punished for struggling or for acting in an autistic way, because nobody knew any different — was that I, and unfortunately many autistic people in my online communities, have these core traumas where a lot of us haven’t been able to really get to know ourselves and our own needs. Even just basic things about what we need to be successful or how to advocate for ourselves. As adults, we’re having to learn things we should have learned in childhood but we were denied the opportunity to do. I want the world to be better for future generations of autistic young people. Giving them this tool now while they’re young so they can grow up with these things — so they don’t have the same traumas that too many autistic adults have of that self-denial, like “you don’t really need that,” “you’re not trying hard enough” — all of these things that can become self-fulfilling prophecies that make us feel like we’re not enough.

When we’re strong and confident in what we need, how we can be the best versions of ourselves, and what we really want instead of what other people tell us we should want, that lets us be strong, bold, empowered autistic people as we age. It would be much easier for us to start out that way as young people instead of having to go back as adults and relearn all these things. I’ve wanted to do something like this for adults for a long time. Then I saw that Rebecca had already started something like this for young people. When I heard, “Hey, there’s an American version,” I’m like, I’m in — let’s do this. The concept was so in line with something I would have needed growing up. If there was something I wish I could have had most as an autistic young person, it would be the opportunity to learn about myself in this way.

Debbie:
That’s great. I’d love to even explore this idea of identity a little more. I don’t even know if I have a really well-formed question, but I think about identity as being really the job — identity development is such a core part of the work or play or whatever verb you want to use — of a young person: to figure out who am I, right? That’s what they’re meant to do. And I know how hard it can be for neurodivergent kids who might— you know, my kiddo, I wrote about this in Differently Wired — identified as a bad kid. That was part of identity development. Can you talk a little bit more about this — what you find in your work with young people about that very important role of identity development, and what identity is, and how easily can it be changed?

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, it’s interesting because — I can’t remember if it was at the book proposal or one of the first drafts — the publishers always get lots of feedback from different people. So they’ll send out sections or proposals to reviewers and try to get lots of autistic reviewers. One of the pieces of feedback was around the concept of identity and really understanding that. So I did quite a lot of research at the start, and I remember reading a book about the real theoretical understanding of what identity is. I can’t remember what the book was called, but it was really interesting to reflect on that just from your own life, because obviously you have these core values that often stay with you through life, but then there are other aspects of your identity that will change based on the environment you’re in, or your stage and age of life. It’s quite an interesting concept. For our young people, parents often say to me, “When should I tell my child that they’re autistic?” For me, it’s always as early as possible — and almost, if possible, it not be a discovery moment. If the child almost can’t remember being told, that’s great, because then it’s just part of their identity journey, something they’ve always known.

In the work I’ve done, it’s often most successful when the child or young person is quite young or has had positive perceptions of autism already. I’m working with some older students where it’s a little trickier — they’ve had negative perceptions. Sometimes it’s other family members who have a slightly different profile of autism, and then they’re told they’re autistic and they’re like, “Well, I’m nothing like that other person.” It’s really hard then to unpick what that actually means to them if they’re starting off on a really negative starting point, which is why I always say language is so important. If you’re telling a person, “you’ve got a disorder” — like ASD stands for Autism Spectrum Disorder — you’re on the back foot already, because how are you going to have a positive perception of having a disorder? There are so many aspects that interplay in your identity understanding. I mean, you’re nodding along, Lyric.

Lyric Rivera:
Yeah. For too many autistic people — like me, as an adult not finding out until late — even though I didn’t have the language to describe being autistic, once I had the label, I could easily look back at my entire life and realize all the things I’d packed up in my “box of shame” that were like, “These are the things about you that are unacceptable. These are the things you have to get rid of. This is all that’s bad about you,” was basically my neurodivergent traits that other people didn’t find useful or cool. Anything that was perceived as a weakness or made me stand out too much or made people bully me or pick on me or got me in trouble with authority figures — growing up, all of that was “bad.” And it was like this big shame box. Shame isn’t helpful. As an adult, I’m trying to figure out how to love myself because I learned to be ashamed of those parts of myself that didn’t have labels and I didn’t understand. If we don’t have the opportunity to really know who we are, and we don’t get that strong sense of identity from a young age, we can unfortunately let society define who we are for us. If people are always telling us that we’re not enough — when we’ve tried our hardest and our best is all we can give — and someone’s like, “If you would just try a little harder,” “If you would just apply yourself,” words that haunt me from my childhood when I was already trying my best — my best was all I had to give — I really internalized that I was not enough and I was terrible. I didn’t understand why until many years later.

Now, I can look back at it and go, “Oh, I was being hard on myself because people were hard on me, and I became that way.” When we give young people this tool to be empowered in their autistic identity and be like, “No, I’m autistic, and so I can do this, but I need these supports,” or knowing their sensory profiles and things — because I didn’t even know why I would have sensory overload or why I would have meltdowns, and how to prevent those things. I just thought I was an angry, mean person because I would blow up seemingly out of nowhere. Now I realize there were a lot of things that led to this final straw where I just couldn’t take it anymore and would blow up — because I was trained to repress so much and ignore my needs and ignore my sensory needs and ignore what I was feeling to make myself palatable or make other people more comfortable with me, and just to not make waves and be invisible so people wouldn’t bully me or pick on me or I wouldn’t get in trouble. Blending in and fawning and being as invisible as possible was a survival skill for me for a lot of my years. Don’t take up space, because you can get in trouble. Asking too many questions in school — asking the wrong questions — the teachers are like, “You should know this,” but I didn’t. They think you’re trying to cause trouble when I was a genuinely curious child. Eventually, I stopped asking questions, even though — even as an adult — I want to know why every single thing. But I suppressed that because it was safer. So the identity piece — knowing why, being strong — “this is what I need to thrive” — that’s a gift I hope we can give to young people through this book: help them learn so many things about themselves. There’s a lot of juicy good stuff in here.

Debbie:
I love that so much. And just imagine how powerful it could be for a young person to kind of skip over all of that shame spiral and just grow up feeling good about who they are and really knowing themselves. It’s very exciting to think about.  I just wanted to circle back on something, Rebecca — when you mentioned that this is starting at 10. And I think that is really interesting, right? Because again, I think of identity development maybe as more middle school, high school — that individuation, all of that stuff. So what is it about the age of 10? I’m just curious. Is that kind of before that social awareness happens? What is it about that age?

Rebecca Duffus:
Good question. Ten is a tricky one. It’s partly that I didn’t really want to put an age on the book, if I’m honest. But the publishers — the whole publishing world — like to have very specific guidance of who this is for. So my arm was kind of twisted. I’ve had a lot of feedback from people who have used the book with a lot younger kids, and adults have used it as well — even though it’s aimed at young people and teens. I use the book now when I’m working with young people, and I’ll just pick the bits I’m using it for. It kind of builds on itself. The earlier stages are simple — looking at identity from your physical identity (you’ve got glasses, I don’t have glasses), likes and dislikes, that kind of stuff. Sometimes with teens they can be a bit like, “This is a bit basic,” and then it gets into the sensory system, self-advocacy — the deeper stuff. Some people will have the earlier conversations about neurodiversity and being autistic and keep it simplified, then build onto the later aspects when the child is older. Often, in the work I’d done previously, in the UK it’s about Year 4 — maybe around eight-ish — when young people tend to start asking more questions and realize, “I’m going out to get some group intervention,” or, “I’m struggling with this aspect that other people don’t seem to struggle with.” That’s sometimes when that awareness comes out. But, as I said, I would use these resources with a variety of ages and certainly start having the conversations earlier. That was kind of where the magic number appeared from.

Lyric Rivera:
I’ll say, as an autistic young person, even not knowing I was autistic, I knew I was different by the time I was probably six or seven years old — first grade. That was because I entered the school system and I was around peers that were not like me for the first time, and I could tell I was not like them. They picked on me and bullied me so much because they could tell I wasn’t like them either. So for me, that realization that something was different about me came much earlier than 10. And then the other thing — even though it says 10, and like Rebecca said, adults have grabbed this to use for themselves — with autistic and neurodivergent people, some of us are really good in our specific areas of skills, and the areas we’re not good at we can struggle more than most people. Reading levels can be all over the place. Even some older kids, if they have reading difficulties in addition to being autistic, might appreciate the lower, easier language and the simplicity of it. A lot of autistic people are visual thinkers. I’m hyperlexic — I was reading college books in elementary school — but if you’re dyslexic or you’re not hyperlexic, and because we see in pictures, if there are a lot of words that create extra pictures, that can really make things more confusing. So it being less cluttery and simple language can be really beneficial.

Rebecca Duffus:
I was just looking at what you were saying in terms of the visual aspects. Some of the bits you might see here about discussing the senses — that’s a really abstract concept. We’ve done it so it’s layered on each other in terms of the visuals. I was at a conference a few months ago and there were parents buying multiple sets so they could work through with their child as they’d both been diagnosed, and they were like, “I need one for myself,” which is a really nice way of doing it.

Debbie:
I’m wondering about young people who might feel resistant to this idea of doing identity work, or even wanting to acknowledge or consider that they might be different — especially if you think about young teens. A priority for a lot of people that age is not standing out, not being different. How do you advise parents or caregivers who might want to do this work with their kids to move forward if their kids are like, “Back off”?

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, I’ve had a few young people like this, and I’ve kind of gone around the houses. There is one young person where the word “autism” was like a trigger for him. He would go the other way and start listing all the autistic traits he’d researched that he was definitely none of, and kind of over-validating that, I guess. I did lots of things using different terminology. There are things out there like using “explorer brain,” “detective brain,” “researcher brain” — basically explaining some of the traits of neurodiversity or of autism specifically. He was then open to identifying with those traits. One of the analogies we use in the book is the neurodiversity orchestra — looking at how in an orchestra you have lots of different types of instruments, great on their own, all sound different, but when they come together, they form something even greater. Then looking at that in the classroom or workplace — we need lots of different types of ways of thinking to form a greater collective. If you can focus on, like, “Your strength in a group is focusing on the detail, maybe checking the information,” and someone else’s strength is presenting, or whatever — focusing on the characteristics, because that’s what you want the young person to understand — what that means to them, taking the word away. Lyric’s just showing part of it. And once they’re more comfortable with those traits, hopefully as there are more positive societal messages, I’d encourage school to do a lot of work. In the UK, we celebrate Autism Week and Neurodiversity Awareness Week, and I’d want the schools to have displays up, be looking at autistic authors in lessons, so it’s embedded in lots of aspects of life. So you’re drip feeding that positive message — leaving a book on the coffee table at home by an autistic author, so that you’re slowly trying to correct the narrative, I guess.

Debbie:
Yeah, and just as a follow-up to that — I’ve heard from so many parents who have kids who, whether they’re autistic or have ADHD or some other learning disability, the parent really feels attached to this idea that their kid is going to see their neurodivergence as a superpower — as a positive thing. I’m always saying we have to really respect how our kid wants to integrate that identity and what it means for them. Any thoughts on that if a parent has an agenda when they’re doing this work with their kids?

Lyric Rivera:
I will say it is unfortunate that too often we lean into this superpower thing, as if we have to be superhuman to have value in the world. It makes me a little sad. But for some young people, this is your skill — this is what makes you awesome. To kids, superheroes are simple and might be something they gravitate to. I always say, “These are the things that make you really awesome,” instead of superhero language, because we’re human. Unfortunately, autistic people have been dehumanized a lot in the language over the years, and we have a medical pathology part that only defines us by weaknesses and difficulties. Literally, if you aren’t struggling in a clinically significant way, you don’t get a diagnosis. So it doesn’t give a picture for what autistic success looks like — the skills aren’t outlined in the diagnostic criteria at all. There’s a tendency — and I understand where it comes from — to over-correct in the opposite direction, and it kind of dehumanizes in a different way, in my opinion. As humanity, we’ve got different strengths and weaknesses. The fact that we all have different strengths and weaknesses is the beauty and diversity of neurodiversity. It means it doesn’t matter if I have a weakness that a lot of people are good at. If we work together, somebody else can do that thing. That’s not my cup of tea. We don’t all need to be good at the same things. It’s better when we work as a community, in corporations, business, survival of species — to have different diverse skill sets and strengths and weaknesses. So we’re all awesome — it’s just knowing the ways all of us are awesome, and letting us lean into those aptitudes. Personally, I think that’s more helpful. What do you think, Rebecca?

Rebecca Duffus:
Completely. I would add, in terms of the parents having their own agenda, a lot of what the guidebook focuses on is the parents being ready to have those conversations themselves. Sometimes there needs to be a bit of a pause while the parents work through their own stuff. If you’re coming to the table with a lot of guilt or not understanding it yourself, that will come across to the child. Sometimes you might not be the best placed person to have those initial conversations. If you don’t think you can get through the conversation without crying, then speak to school and see if there’s somebody who really knows your person who could have that initial talk. Then you can do the follow-up work — because it’s not going to be a quick one-session done. It’s an ongoing thing throughout your young person’s life. The journey parents go on trying to get the diagnosis in the first place — and then you’re left on your own to try and find support — that is traumatic as well. There’s a lot to mentally process for parents. Be kind to yourselves.

Debbie:
I love that. It’s kind of one of the core messages I talk about at Tilt Parenting: we have to do our own work, right? That’s what it’s all about. It’s not about “do this to have your kid do X, Y, and Z.” It’s “how can I better show up for this human?” And it takes as long as it takes sometimes. I think it’s really important to take the time you need so that you can show up to that conversation without the anxiety and the fear influencing how you communicate things. Okay, as a way to wrap up, how do you want listeners to use — say they grab these books — how do you encourage people to do this work? What does it actually look like?

Rebecca Duffus:
I would say read the guidebook first and take a bit of time to digest that. It might be that you’re fully up to speed already and you understand what autism is. Also, acknowledging parents who are autistic themselves will probably have a lot of knowledge, but that might be your own autism and you might have to take that hat off and reflect differently on your child. Have that, and probably have a support network around you. Try not to do it in complete isolation. If you’ve got a partner or other family members — we could probably do another podcast on grandparents and what page they’re on — that might be somewhere you pass the guidebook afterwards for grandparents to look at. There are suggestions in the guidebook of how to break it down into six sessions, but that’s just a generic pro-forma. Think about your young person — how long they can attend for and how big chunks of information they’ll be able to take on board. Think about how often you want to be having this conversation. Is it a set thing — every Saturday morning we’re going to do a bit of this together? You might want to give it a specific name, like a special sort of time together.

Also, think about where you’re having those conversations. If you’ve got one child doing homework on one side of the room and the TV is on and there’s lots going on, that’s probably not the best time. Or you’re just about to cook dinner and you’re aware of the time ticking. Think of environmental factors — sensory aspects — trying to make it as comfortable and positive for the young person. I’ve had conversations in schools where they’ve put me in a room where there’s a buzzing electricity switchboard on the wall and we’re next to a PE lesson. It’s really overwhelming and not the right place. Then it’s building gradually and following your young person’s and your own pace, I would say. Lyric?

Lyric Rivera:
No, I think that’s really perfect. As you’re going through it, remember to keep the language positive throughout the whole time. Remember, we don’t want to create any shame. We want to create that confidence and that “it’s okay to be different and it’s okay to be you” mindset. These aren’t problems — we don’t want to paint our kids like problems to be solved. They’re beautiful beings that need some love and support and compassion.

Rebecca Duffus:
And following on from that, it’s not that you finish the last page and say, “Right, we’re all sorted.” It’s keeping that conversation going — sending random Instagram posts you see or printing things out or keeping it going. Some families choose to do their own ongoing workbooks — a notebook where the person will put things in, stick things in, or do their own voice notes — whatever works for your young person, so they can reflect as they go. It’s going to change based on what stage of school they’re at and then beyond school.

Debbie:
Yeah. As you were explaining how the workbook and book could be used, I was picturing this would be such a cool thing for groups to do — like a group of parents going through it together, and then them going into their respective homes and having those conversations, then coming back for support and discussing it. It’s powerful work, and it isn’t something I’ve really seen before. It’s very specific and important. This stuff really, really matters. I’m excited that this is out in the world. Is there anything we didn’t touch upon that you’d want to make sure listeners know before we say goodbye?

Rebecca Duffus:
I don’t think so. Just keep an eye out. I always get really excited when I hear people in the celebrity world talking about being autistic. I’m like, yes — another potential role model for that young person. That’s something Lyric and I will often share on our social media channels, so keeping an eye on various pieces of news and things. Our channels are another way of getting information and seeking advice. I love the idea about the group. I know some schools have done groups of young people going through the workbooks — making sure they have time individually first, because it’s a sensitive topic to suddenly be talking about as a group. But the parent idea is a great one.

Lyric Rivera:
I would just say, like we were mentioning earlier — with the workbooks, anyone who’s going to be working closely with that child or who might babysit the child — helping them be familiar so they understand what’s going on and how important keeping things positive is. You can create that safe bubble in your own home, and it’s a little harder the further outside of your nuclear circle you get, but it is really important. The more affirming, positive interactions those young people have, the better.

Debbie:
Yeah. I’m making a note to reach out to you guys down the road to do another conversation about extended family and friends, because we’ve talked about grandparents and how complicated it could be, but not in the context of identity work — that’d be really interesting. And I’m just going to add — I just read that Aimée Lou Wood, one of the stars of White Lotus, she was in Sex Education, very hot actress right now — has just come out as saying she’s autistic. It is a fascinating time. It’s exciting. The more high-profile people embrace and celebrate their identities, the more it helps everybody — it helps the whole paradigm. Okay, I’m going to name the book again. The workbook for kids is Autism, Identity, and Me: A Practical Workbook to Empower Autistic Children and Young People Aged 10+. If you’re only listening to this, you should know that Rebecca and Lyric are both holding up visuals, and now I am too — you can check this out on the YouTube channel, the full Tilt Parenting YouTube channel. And then the workbook for parents and professionals to go through this with kids is Autism, Identity, and Me: A Professional and Parent Guide to Support a Positive Understanding of Autistic Identity. I just want to say congratulations. I really love this collaboration. It’s very exciting. Maybe before we say goodbye, where is the one place you want people — maybe each of you share the one place you want people to reach out to connect with you on social or anywhere else.

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, so for me, probably Instagram is the easiest one — it’s @rebecca.duffus, I think. I’ll just check that.

Lyric Rivera:
And I’m pretty much everywhere on social media except for Twitter and TikTok — I’m not on there. But other than that, if you look for NeuroDivergent Rebel, I’m very easy to find.

Debbie:
Yeah, great social media presence. I will have— Rebecca, did you confirm yours?

Rebecca Duffus:
Yes — @rebecca.duffus. But I am on most of them as well.

Debbie:
Okay, perfect. I will have links to all the places in the show notes — listeners, you can check out all the social media accounts, the books, other things that came up in this conversation will all be included there — and a transcript. And again, if you want to watch this, you can go to our full Tilt Parenting YouTube channel, because we’re joining from three different countries today, so it’s pretty exciting. Rebecca and Lyric, thank you so much. I so enjoyed this conversation and I hope to continue it down the road.

Rebecca Duffus:
Yeah, that’d be great. It’s gone really quickly. Thank you so much for having us. Bye.

Lyric Rivera:
Thank you.